In the early days of the Internet free help was everywhere. If you were willing to learn and could take criticism, you could learn how to be a web designer, SEO or programmer. The only investment was your time and a willingness to give back.
Communities grew out of the need to get jobs done properly. I started out as a moderator for an email list in 1995. While I worked full-time during the daytime in User Interface design, at night I freelanced in SEO for dirt cheap and I taught online for free. I’ve owned and maintained an SEO forum since 1998. That’s a long time to stay committed to a community and an industry. I don’t make any money volunteering at Cre8asiteofrums nor do any of the moderators who help.
Some of the most well known people in the search engine marketing, social networking and web design industries were once moderator’s at large forums. They gave back. They taught. They offered help to the community and the industries they love. They asked for nothing in return, but nearly all of them now have their own businesses. Some are speakers at conferences. Several have turned to focus on their own local towns. As the Internet expands, some of them have found they are needed in new places, like schools or organizations.
When they leave, the forum or community they participated in suffers. There are not enough replacements.
Where Have All The Mentors Gone?
Consider what happens when the company you work for has just laid off several people in your department but kept you on board. Suddenly your work load has doubled or tripled. You get no raise of course, despite the added hours and stress. Your attitude changes. You don’t want to go to work anymore. You resent your employer. It’s the same thing for forums and online communities.
Has the spirit of volunteering gone? Where are the folks from the entire search engine marketing industry who care about making sure the information being taught is correct? Where have the mentors gone?
The outrageous ads I see every day for SEO-type services may be an indicator of where the SEO industry is going these days. Here are some samples from the past 2 days alone:
A request to put paid text links on my site, even though the practice can get your web site banned from search engines or your page rank score will drop.
Someone will submit your site to “1023 search engines”.
Someone will take $5 and promote your site to their followers in Twitter.
Or in Facebook.
Someone will give you an SEO audit for under $10.
Someone will “Submit your sites”. They don’t bother to say to what.
Someone will click on your ads, for a fee.
Many people will leave blog comments for you, for cheap.
One person will “send you traffic”.
“I will link to your site” for a few bucks.
Incredible! It is easier for SEO’s to go online to lie and deceive than to participate in communities and build up a solid, ethical reputation.
Over the weekend I learned that a well known website that charges its members thousands to join has filled its articles database by scraping articles it finds on the Internet. They make it appear as though the author submitted the article and can be contacted personally. Neither is true. The contact forms for scraped content don’t work. The article writer gets no link, no bio and no proper credit for their work. Copyright information is completely ignored.
Regulating SEO practices and providing certification are topics that come up for debate several times a year. Nobody agrees on how or if it should be done. Certification does not mean the person will not turn around and conduct business ethically or responsibly. A badge is not proof of expertise. Satisfied clients and work history are the real indicators.
Every day I weed out forum spammers. They are nearly always from the SEO industry.
Thankfully, I’ve been able to get out and train people and companies who want to learn best practices. They fall in love with the challenges and thrill of organic SEO practices. I get to work with companies who believe in the future of the Internet. They want to know everything they can about user experience design, information architecture, accessibility for special needs users and how to rank well in search engines. These dignified folks understand that investing in truly skilled persons is the proper path. However, they are not easily found in forums and online communities offering support.
What is happening with the next generation of Internet workers? One look at a community such as Sphinn and you can see the poor quality of the articles. Sometimes the advice is downright incorrect or out dated. It’s not the fault of Sphinn. The contributors, who are mostly new online marketers, are not providing quality content. And the volunteer Moderators are the same people that I’ve seen volunteering since the 1990’s.
So when is the next generation of SEO’s going to step up to the plate? Who among you will stand out and be leaders?
As we all spent a lot of time in forums helping each other, refining techniques; SEO has become just another tool in the shed. The next generation will just learn what they need to know, forget the art in it and just get it done because they are trying to keep up with what’s hot and every other digital marketing tactic. Their websites won’t really have any type of real strategy because they’re focused on tactically just executing it. It’s easy to optimize a website, right
It’s actually kind of weird you post this now. I have been thinking about donating my time to some local charities in my spare time. Right now I have too much on my plate, but come fall I plan to donate my time to helping some local charities with SEO and with Social Media.
I definitely agree with you though. The SEO Industry seems to be rampant with scammers and fraudulent companies.
I would love to be part of the next generation of leaders in the field, but quite frankly, I do not have the time to devote to pure SEO. I’m an Ecommerce Marketing Manager who lost his employee’s last September. I’ve been doing the work of three people since then and refuse to take short-cuts, as much as I might need that extra time. I spend my days working in-house for a software company and my evenings are spent doing freelance work. Free is the operative word because since this market is so saturated, people think they shouldn’t have to pay me for the work I do.
It’s very hard to do what you love when all these things you don’t love are bearing down on you. I would love to be able to sit on forums and help people, but I’m having a hard time devoting the time to learn it all myself. This is still a new market and there’s so much happening, so much changing. It’s a very dynamic landscape and while that is one of the things I love about it, that is the same thing that keeps me wondering if I really do know my stuff.
I know my stuff well enough to work on my own website where you’ll find sensible tips for small businesses to promote their websites themselves. I do some affiliate marketing but between you and me, I’m not looking for sales. Good thing, ’cause I haven’t received any!
I just want to help, and I just want to be helped. I would love it if this wasn’t a cut-throat industry. Maybe the older generation could help shape the newer generation, but they’re busy jet-setting around the world with the companies they’ve built up. Are we wrong to want for that as well?
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Kim, I think it does come down to time. There are good, young (&/or new), SEO’s out there, but the good ones are busy. When I started two years ago, I read hundreds of posts and forum threads every month. Now, I’m lucky if I get to a dozen or two. And if I can’t even keep up with my reading, I’m sure I would make a horrible mod.
When I’m not doing my full time job, I am helping people . . . but the people I’m helping are not necessarily other SEO’s. In general, I help friends and local businesses avoid the things that you mentioned above.
And I’m just now getting to the point where I would feel comfortable moderating a forum, but I have no idea if I’m qualified in the industry’s eyes. When I see something to help with on twitter, or in a forum I’ll do what I can . . . hopefully that’s enough for now.
The best answer is that a little bit goes a long way when it comes to SEO advice to nonprofits or really anybody looking for help. Everyone above seems to agree that extra time is nonexistent right now, not no reason you can’t help someone when you’re on the go.
Kim, I don’t think it’s that there is a lack of willingness to share or teach. I think it’s simply that the medium for conveying that knowledge has changed.
It used to be forums, now it’s Twitter and blogs.
I was one of the ones educated in the forums thanks to the generous feedback of others such as yourself. I graduated to owning & running a forum of my own but the interaction level just isn’t there anymore.
There are a lot fewer people looking for info in those settings and I think it’s because it’s readily available on blogs these days.
If I have a question to ask my peers, I usually tweet it. I don’t post about it in a forum because it’s just not as quick or easy. Plus, there are a lot more resources out there that will teach you SEO at an affordable price.
I don’t think this reflects negatively on the SEO industry, rather it illustrates the changing mediums we use to communicate as a community.
As for the snake oil salesmen, there have been and always will be examples of this. The more popular SEO becomes, the more it will happen. You need only to look at the medical industry (where snake oil originated) to find a respectable industry that has it’s share of scammers & frauds.
P.S. @BJ Cook, it’s really weird seeing you comment on posts as I went by BJ for most of my life. My first thought when reading the comments here was… did I already read this & forget
I think those that are motivated and that want to learn will seek out mentors. Those that don’t will write sub par articles and submit them to Sphinn hoping that will be enough to gain authority. And I think that’s how things have always worked, forums or not. I’m not sure anything’s changed.
But is it the Old Gen’s responsibility to seek out and teach or the New Gens responsibility to ask for help and information?
I know that when I was new, Michael Gray and Rae Hoffman adopted me like a puppy and kept me on the right path. Five years later, Rae and I own a company together and Michael continues to be the strongest voice in my professional (and, fine, personal) life. But people need to want that mentorship relationship. They have to be committed to putting in the work. Not everyone wants to do that. You can’t fail the would-be-mentors.
I have a hard time buying the “we’re too busy” line. This industry has always been incredibly generous with its time and resources. I see people asking/answering questions on Twitter all day long. Blog comment threads are often filled with discussion. I know I personally get tons of email that I always answer. I watch Rae get swarmed at conferences and listen to her answers questions for hours over beers and offer to take a look at people’s sites. That knowledge transfer is there if people want it and if they seek it out. There are always those who are willing to help because they remember those that helped them when THEY were new.
The problem is people don’t want it. They don’t want to learn, they want to make money. And the truth is, you can make money as an SEO without being a very good SEO because the common person can’t tell the difference. Raise the bar on what we tolerate (stop sphinning crap) and what we do and you’ll find people aiming to raise their own.
When you accept crap, you get crap. The question isn’t where are the skilled, generous SEOs. The question is, why don’t people want to be great?
Kim, I appreciate your post on an important topic to the continuation of the SEO industry (and all others). I think the mentorship is continuing, just in a different way than it has historically done. For instance, I’m fielding DMs via Twitter, messages through FB, and e-mails mostly from locals who are suddenly finding SEO to be mainstream and important. For me, it has become less about the organized SEO forums and communities and more about the people I know, like Tim talked about.
I guess I would be considered a newer SEO since I really started getting into it within the past 5 years. It would have been great to see how the industry really got started and see the original experts. For me, the best I can do is learn from the individuals who have earned a good reputation buy following them on Twitter, Facebook, watch for their content on Sphinn and subscribing to their blogs. Sometimes I find it hard to get answers to questions all the time but for the most part, the one’s I trust are really good about offering advice and help any way they can. This was a really good post. Thanks.
My 2c could really just be “I agree with Tim Staines”. The sites where we used to trade info are now over-run with spammers promoting themselves and the signal/noise ratio is almost too ludicrous to bother with.
The good, working SEO/SEM specialists are simply too busy servicing their existing clients and screening new clients (another worthwhile topic for the future). Their spare time is spent helping friends and working on the side projects that are a neccesity in this industry. Sometimes these side projects turn into viable businesses and the cycle continues.
I personally think that mentoring in our industry will occur more frequently in smaller social circles, whether on twitter or elsewhere, and will require a bit of work from all parties. In a way, that’s going to be a good thing because those relationships make it easy to judge the quality of the advice being delivered and builds stronger professional relationships.
The downside is that the nuggets of info wont be shared the way they used to be but then again, do you want to share info with the caliber of person who emails an SEM agency four times offering to get them on the front page?
I think a lot of us are unsure of how much we know. I know for me: I just started speaking at my school, talking about SEO and a different way to approach an English degree. However, it has taken me a long time to really feel comforted that I know what I’m doing (a little). But often with all of the information out there, I feel like sometimes I don’t know enough. (In SEO, you can never know enough, right?)
Thanks everyone for your interest in this topic!
For those who claim to not have time to support their industry in some type of donation of advice or community involvement, I’m afraid I don’t sympathize. As I said, I worked full-time, freelanced at night, ran or moderated forums and email lists – and was a single mother of two small children. I’m not the only working mother who did this. (The others can speak up if they wish to.)
For those who don’t have the confidence, you’ll never know unless you join communities and see where you feel comfortable. They’re all different.
@Nate – “Maybe the older generation could help shape the newer generation, but they’re busy jet-setting around the world with the companies they’ve built up. Are we wrong to want for that as well?” This is a myth. Do you really believe I jet set around the world? It’s a common misconception that those in the business for a long time are rich, charge a ton of money, and can afford to travel to every conference. I wish!
@Tim – the “good ones” are busy because many of them are doing things for free. Granted, some of the A-list will absolutely never do anything unless they are paid. “If it doesn’t lead to new business, I won’t do it” is their business model. They have that right. It’s not going to help the industry, however. They are not concerned with anything but themselves.
@Ben – Indeed. Forums are dying. They are an environment of a karmic give and take. More and more people have expectations for free advice that really should be paid for, such as site audits. Twitter, Linked-in and blogs offer a more instant response. But, I rarely seen someone ask for SEO advice or help with confusing code on Twitter.
@TheLisa wrote, “But is it the Old Gen’s responsibility to seek out and teach or the New Gens responsibility to ask for help and information?”
Does anyone give a damn about this industry anymore, I would ask? There are forums for software developers where the standard is for persons hired to do jobs they have no idea how to do come and ask to be trained in the forum. The advice they get is offered by others who ALSO have no freaking idea how to build or test software applications. It’s up to the moderators to clean up the disaster left in the wake of all the bad information – if there is anyone left who cares enough to do that.
I don’t feel any responsibility, but I would also like to think that my peers and those learning take pride in their work. You asked, “The question is, why people don’t want to be great?” Exactly.
@Wayne – “The sites where we used to trade info are now over-run with spammers promoting themselves and the signal/noise ratio is almost too ludicrous to bother with.” I agree. I can only vouch for my own. I research every single new member. It’s a free forum but no bots and spammers are allowed to join. Every person who does spam is reported and their IP banned. I am not paid to do any of this research nor are the moderators for catching anyone breaking rules. In our community, the members report spam posts to us if they see it. So, my point is, forums are different. Some of them are good.
@Jaded…I remember being scared to death to post at WebmasterWorld. I figured I was out of my league. I learned there are ways of writing that really help, such as not sounding like a Know-it-all and not doing any self-promo. I would jump in and if you are corrected by someone learn from it and go back out and try again.
Kim – I would like to clarify that yours is one of the three or four left that I consider a forum with quality content. Its obvious that you do a good job screening and it really does show in the discussions.
@Ben Cook – Strange. I’d say my initials run fairly popular across the web
It’s particularly interesting, as actually *I* might have way too many projects at hand and be overworked to post more on the forums.
Perhaps, the SEO learning market has changed:
- back in the days, most ppl kept their knowledge to themselves and didn’t post it on blogs, so you had to join a forum of SEO experts (who created it for themselves to discuss things) to actually ask questions
- nowadays, the free sharing economy of the past has grown to heaps of data available, so new ppl not only start reading blogs first, but they may not even comment on them
- I could be wrong here, but most of the SEO stuff has finally been jotted down and turned into best practices, It’s in going way, way deeper into practice that various questions come up. Or so it seems.
All of this has reduced the amount of questions to ask and the very need to join the forums. Twitter has also given the socializers a better way to communicate. And yes, it’s hard to explain a site problem via Twitter, so it’s hard to imagine someone teaching/learning SEO that on Twitter, other than following links (then again, in my stream I don’t see links to novice SEO stuff).
As for SEOs themselves, some might’ve found other ways to give away the 10-15% of their time for free, shifting from helping on the forums to aiding specific ppl they met on/offline. As for me, personally, I was starting to think I’ve finally given back to the forum something comparable to what I’ve taken, if this can be measured at all, of course.
@Yura, you are very active at Cre8asiteforums. You have always reminded me of the days when strong involvement was just how it was done.
Some readers may recall Ammon Johns. Ammon spent many years as a moderator at Cre8 but before that, he and I met at the WebpositionGold forum. We both were there to offer help as regular community members. There was a moderator but she was good about letting the community help itself. I brought that lesson to Cre8. Why were Ammon and I there? Because we wanted accurate information being taught.
Fantomaster was out working many forums and usenet. I saw him everywhere. He remains still in Twitter and is still supporting the industry despite having built his own business.
Jill Whalen has a forums, a newsletter and teaches locally. She is a mother and a businesswoman. She doesn’t complain about not having time.
This is what concerns me. The same people who were out teaching, mentoring, supporting and promoting good solid practices are still doing it. Danny Sullivan…still at it. There are so many, from the 1990′s doing things like teaching at MarketMotive, or courses or workshops or seminars. Everyone is keeping an eye for new leaders and continued growth but where do you find the next generation? Why is the next Gen not standing up and fighting the spam/scam/scapers?
If readers are aware of strong leaders from today’s crop of SEO’s and Internet marketers,by all means, let us hear about them!
Perhaps they’ve indeed started having blogs instead of sharing their insights on the forums?
These people are not new, but I’ve started seeing them more often in a few communities or/and run their own blogs, rather than settle on a single forum (as far as I know):
- Michael Martinez, who posts at Cre8 a bit and on other sites, writes at seo-theory.com
- Sebastian, who writes at sebastians-pamphlets.com.
- Bill Slawski, who as you know writes at seobythesea.com (and SEL, irrc). He’s by no means new, but started sharing things on his blog and left Cre8 (sadly).
- Jane Copland, who answers questions at SEOmoz
- Rebecca Kelley at 10e20.com
I’m sure an active Sphinner can name a few more names.
I think there needs to be a significant amount of time before the new SEOs have enough experience to share their knowledge and worry about scrapers, bad bots and other cacophony of unknown words. Since the publishing/reading market has changed, I’d expect them to share their knowledge to their own circles, rather than on the forums, too.
And, of course, since we have Michael Gray and Aaron Wall to dissect the evil strategy of Google, why should someone want to take their place on that subject? On the other hand, one needs to secretly love Google to spend that much time discovering what it has in store for us.
Hi Kim!
I absolutely agree! I saw several companies here in my locality at least that has been considering if not bannering such types of “SEO” services.
Ethics is a serious issue online nowadays.
Cheers!
Jurgen
Lisa hit on an important point, which is the motivation of someone claiming to be involved in search marketing. I’m sure this isn’t the only industry full of people more interested in turning a quick buck than doing a job they can be proud of, but we sure have our fair share.
For those avarice-driven souls, finding accurate information isn’t important. When profit reigns supreme, there’s no time to waste on silly things like learning, testing and figuring out what actually works. Just look at Wall Street…there’s way more profit in baffling people with BS.
I don’t know that there’s as much incentive to share useful information as there may have been in the past. There are just SO many jackasses out there that don’t care about learning or accuracy, but will pass content off as their own (i.e. scrapers) or republish it in misleading ways (i.e. the TOPSEOs borderline fraudulent “Knowledge Zone”) to make themselves seem legitimate.
It seems that those who really want to learn and collaborate do so on a more personal level…between those with whom a certain level of respect has been established. When I first started out I was a little surprised at the willingness of the best & the brightest to share information and help me. I quickly realized that the information itself wasn’t of much value unless it was actually put to use and I began to understand why it was shared so freely.
I spent a lot of years training customer service people, sales teams, etc. and always got a sense of satisfaction out of training people well. I’m sure that was the payoff for many search marketing mentors in days gone by. Now, though, it seems those with malicious intent have found ways to profit by just stealing the information, rather than actually learning from it and using it to better their understanding of search marketing.
That information is no longer used to help industry rookies learn the ropes or develop more successful strategies, but to con unsuspecting website owners and feign authority. And I’m guessing that’s made a lot of people less willing to invest time contributing their knowledge only to see those contributions used for evil.
Ive always believed in giving something back and since im pretty good at this stuff, i offer comprehensive and FREE seo advice on my blog and actively invite people to contact me with their real world issues.
Do you not think the rise of cheap and easy blogging is a contributor? I mean, given a choice between the (apparently, from the outside looking in) thankless task of being a forum moderator, or the shameless self promotion of the blogger, I will (and have) always pick the latter.
Maybe it’s not the next generation not stepping up, maybe it’s just that they’ve gone in a different direction.
Cre8pc: I appreciate your response and I do agree that you all aren’t jet-setting around. I had a bit of an emotional response to your article, which means it was obviously well done! I work hard to learn what I can about the industry for the benefit of my clients and myself and I have yet to find that clear-cut success. My in-house gig is a constant challenge with my bosses wanting results, but not wanting to implement any of my suggested changes. My personal website is where I can do all of my testing, but I don’t bring in the kind of traffic to make any tests worth-while. I’m between a rock and a hard place and until I can find a way to show myself that I actually know what I’m talking about, I have to give advice based on my opinion more than my experience. It’s very difficult for me to be out there helping people based on the way I *think* rather than the way I know. Perhaps one day my employer will give me the tools to succeed, and I know with consistent work my website will start to see the traffic I need to experience rather than assume.
I know I’ll get there but frankly, right now I don’t have the confidence level to assume any kind of leadership role, nor do I have that necessary experience. Maybe this article isn’t talking to me. =)
I’m definitely one of those who has shifted a bit over the past couple of years and some of it is just being busy, but some of it is changing the way that I contribute. I admit I’ve fallen off of good sites like Cre8asite Forums, just due to time, but I’ve consciously left other forums, like LinkedIn Q&A, because I didn’t think my advice was going anywhere. It’s a low-hanging fruit mentality, full of people who want easy answers and won’t listen. Over time, I’ve tried to find people who need real help and are willing to listen.
I’ve done this with charitable giving, too. I used to give $10-20 to everyone who called, even if I knew nothing about their charity but it sounded good. Over time, I realized that wasn’t so much generosity as an unwillingness to say “no”. Now, I focus my efforts (time and money) to a couple of organizations that I know and trust (primarily, human rights causes).
As my brand grows, I’m also finding that more and more people reach out to me directly/privately for help. I still do my best to help them. I’ve also realized that my own clients need more of that spirit of helping from me – it’s not just about the paycheck, but the people who do pay me deserve more than just having me try to finish projects as quickly as I can. They deserve my best ideas. They came to me for help, too.
WOW….. what can I say? Personally, I was a mega-forum hound on at least 5 boards (with more than 1500 posts on 3 of them) and over the years the quality of the conversations seemed to degrade, or maybe I just evolved, not sure. But I just lost interest as much of it was the same ol questions over and over. The interesting convos were few and far between.
These days? Have the blog (the Trail), write on SEJ and elsewhere, the newsletter (SEO Geeks) and of course the community (SEO Dojo) where I am posting content, arranging chat sessions each Friday (30 weeks in) and of course our boards (with pro SEOs talking about stuff I actually enjoy) I also post on Twitter when possible and I’ve some 500+ Sphinn subs and 600 comments. And on top of all this, still managing campaigns and doing consulting with my company… as it is I am doing 60-80hr weeks – I simply don’t have time to do more.
I noticed your comment on raising kids, that’s a sore one for me. No one has any idea of the sadness I have for not being more involved in their lives and it is certainly something I am going to rectify… which means even less time to give to the SEO community.
I personally spend a LOT of time with new gen SEOs (boards, emails, Skype) and I don’t know why more aren’t as active as we were, but much of it does come down to forums going on the down-stroke. I do know that in our chat room (60+ SEOs) people are constantly sharing info and helping each other solve problems. It’s just the method that changed, not as much the activity. Some of the new-gen peeps do blog, but it is often called ‘crap’ because it re-hashes what’s been said before. I’d venture that blogs, much like forums before them, seem to also be getting less traction as well.
I am not getting rich passing along the knowledge of this thing of ours. I work with small/medium sized biz, have a nominal entry fee to the community and it has become trying over the last 5 years to justify the time given back to interacting with the next gen of SEO. It has had some serious personal ramifications (let’s just say my marriage was close to the edge) which had me re-assessing my activities. My family is far more important.
I dare say that this type of problem, coupled with the fact we’re become fractured and clique-ish, is another possibility for some of the decline. It REALLY pisses me off when people think that some of us are rolling in the $$$ or feeding our egos. That’s such bullshit… I LOVE the world of SEO… I am obsessed and that’s what it is about to me.
Anyway, rambling. I personally had to prioritize my online activities and do what I can. I have a deep respect for all those that take the time to teach, share, converse. Where’s the ‘next gen’ going to come from? No idea, but I have faith. It might not be old school on forums, but that doesn’t really bother me.
Ok, sigh, now I am another 1/2hr behind… see whatcha gone done did? hee hee… Ciao
Hi there… This article is very interesting Cre8pc, thanks for it. I am new in the online industry, mainly web designer, not by education but because I like it and things turned out that I am now employed as a web designer. But my primary experience and education is marketing and I would like to learn the right things about SEO. As you said, wrong or outdated information are usually spread on forums or articles but newcomers in this field. So I don’t really know what to trust or not. I would love to get a proper training in that but there are tons of companies that claim they can teach you, for prices that fluctuate a lot from one company to another. Do you have any advice for a newcomer like me to be able to get things right, whether it is by getting a proper training or else?… Thanks in advance for your answer and again for the article.
I think we also have to point fingers at Google here. They really got onto the forum seen with their various help forums that have tremendously grown, while other forums in the SEO space have dwindled. Why go to an unofficial SEO forum when you can ask Googlers in their official forum?
That being said, there are people still giving tremendous info in those forums. They are just not in the same space they were. Now they are in Google forums, Twitter, Facebook etc.
But I do miss the old forum debates.
“But, I rarely seen someone ask for SEO advice or help with confusing code on Twitter. ”
Kim, I guess we’re following different people. I see this type of thing all the time. Hell, I ask about that stuff on a fairly frequent basis. Again, I just think it’s a matter of the medium changing.
I’m curious…listening to the feedback. If forums were to told, would anyone miss them?
@Barry…love your comment about missing the debates
@Ben…the advice that comes in via Twitter…is it accurate and how many responses would be typical?
In Twitter, unless there are eyes there at the moment a question is put out there, a question may be be ignored. It’s not a matter of who I follow (I follow nearly everyone). It’s how often I show up. In a forums, the query remains indefinitely and can be answered the same day and far beyond. If an answer comes in that is incorrect or bad advice, it stands a good chance of being corrected in a community that cares about quality.
@Yura – The folks you mentioned already did their time as volunteers and consistent help givers. They are returning to help again. Why? Is it because there are few new leaders? Maybe. Could be they have true passion and commitment, which again…WHERE IS THIS IN THE NEXT GEN?
@Aly wrote, “When I first started out I was a little surprised at the willingness of the best & the brightest to share information and help me. I quickly realized that the information itself wasn’t of much value unless it was actually put to use and I began to understand why it was shared so freely.” You were easy to find! You helped and you were accurate. You had excellent communication skills. You could write anything from a Tweet to a blog post and do it professionally. You are consistent. You don’t appear one day, promote the shit out of yourself and then disappear. These are qualities I and others keep looking for in new people and they are rare. This concerns me.
@Mark Rushmore – You might be more convincing if you wrote grammatically and spelled properly content. Offering genuine help is not about what YOU get. It’s about unconditional help to others.
@Andy. Could be. But what folks are missing is that the reason we lose the great moderators is because they built up such a tremendous following in the forums where they serve that they were able to start their own businesses and not rely on blog startups to do that. Or, they are literally hired by a company who has seen their “work” in the forums. A forum provides more opportunities to show knowledge and communication skills. And patience ?
@Dr.Pete – “As my brand grows, I’m also finding that more and more people reach out to me directly/privately for help” This is because you have proven over time (not in days or months…years) that you are approachable and skilled. This is why you stuck out and we remembered you. You stuck with it. I would love to see more people who do this.
@Dave – “The interesting convos were few and far between.” Agreed! This is a real problem. Related to Barry’s point about debates, I know that we (me and others) start what seems like a hot topic and it fizzles after the moderators dive in (because they crave something fresh to discuss) and the membership twiddles their thumbs. The long timers will jump in but the new folks forget it. They refuse to even try!
Kids…this is why I work from home. It’s the only way I could raise my kids and be truly involved with them and support them. It has meant wrecking my own health, sacrificing material things (and those fancy conference speaking gigs. I go to something close to me when I can afford It.), and I certainly work really odd hours. I hear ya. In my forums, I have a “rule” for all the mods. It’s family and health first. They get angry at me for not following my own advice but I would never ask volunteers to make sacrifices.
“Some of the new-gen peeps do blog, but it is often called ‘crap’ because it re-hashes what’s been said before.” Indeed! This is true and frustrating. Again, where are the fresh thinkers? Where is the talent?
“It REALLY pisses me off when people think that some of us are rolling in the $$$ or feeding our egos. That’s such bullshit… I LOVE the world of SEO… I am obsessed and that’s what it is about to me.” This is my long-time gripe too. I try to control my anger when someone asks me why I’m not going to the latest gig. Well, let’s see. I have a mortgage, car payment, university tuition for my daughter now and my son in 2 years, not to mention I go to his baseball/football/etc games (I will not sacrifice kid time to get rich), etc. Like you, I have my priorities and it has always been my family. That means many of us in the biz are not rich. However, we are really damned good in our work
Loved your whole post!!!
@All – Where do we send people for accurate, trustworthy, credible information? Is it Twitter? Blogs? Forums? Online communities like Sphinn? How do we fight back against the serious volume of scum out there? I’m always tempted to hang them up to dry in my own blog but I’m not into focusing on all that negative energy
Kim, I think there are a number of reasons:
1. Mono-culture of search engines: back when there were 8 or so major search engines, plus 4 major directories (does anyone remember directory optimization?) SEO was fun. Now it’s all Google. A diet of only Google bores me to tears. (Although social network marketing has perked up things a bit)
2. Googleguy. Search engine reps in the forums hurt things in the long run.
3. Burnout. I know during my time as a moderator at Searchking forums, Spiderfood and SearchGuild, I got worn down answering the same questions over and over. I’m sure it happened to others too.
4. Rudeness: Cre8asite forums has always been very polite. But I remember when WmW started growing so fast that it went from a chummy club like atmosphere to more of a free for all. A lot of old time members left when that happened. Then many mods left after a time too.
5. Blogs – the original forums started when domains, hosting and a forum script (written in perl) cost a small fortune. When blogs came around with cheap hosting, it started to make some sense for many old time SEO’s to build content for themselves instead of in a forum.
I think a few established forums will survive. I would not like to try to start a new one today.
Outspoken has spoken – http://outspokenmedia.com/seo/teaching-protecting-seo/
“But I think she has it backwards.”
“Where are all the generous SEOs that used to mentor these confused newbies?”
A bit of help with editing for understanding from a friend would have helped me out but instead, it has blown up into crap. So to clarify for those who I know understand…just really. I get it now…
I want to know where the new generation (apparently not forums, thank you for the feedback) and I wanted to know who among them are ready to teach, mentor, pass along the tribal customs of SEO? (Still very little feedback on that.)
I did NOT say, “Where have all the cowboys gone?”
“I want to know where the new generation (apparently not forums, thank you for the feedback) and I wanted to know who among them are ready to teach, mentor, pass along the tribal customs of SEO?”
If the younger generation are not learning at, participating in, teaching at, forums then maybe they are not getting noticed when they do mentor others? I mean I still recognize people from their old forum nicknames or a few by whatever handle they have branded themselves with, but I see a lot of new SEO names on Twitter and in blog comments, so it makes me wonder, maybe they are pitching in only just not at the places I haunt? I’m not sure if that makes sense but I see your point Kim.
@Brad…”If the younger generation are not learning at, participating in, teaching at, forums then maybe they are not getting noticed when they do mentor others?” You make a great point! (thank you)
I see retweeting of other person’s stuff on Twitter or votes on Sphinn. I don’t consider that mentoring or teaching. I don’t see many new folks in Cre8forums but we are really particular about spam so they can’t get in or last long if they try. They may be in other forums. Or not at all.
I wanted to know where they are. The conferences are filled with them and I get home and its a big let down.
Another thing I just thought of is a doz years ago we had far less competition in the teaching space. It was easy to put up a site that handled knowledge share. Of course many still exist but what I may have learned is that I can retire from forums ownership!
Things are happening out there, just not where I go. I would not have known this if I hadn’t asked around.
I agree with @Ben & @Dave.
When I started in SEO, I frequented forums such as Search Engine Watch & WebmasterWorld. There were great mentors on those forums such as Aussie Webmaster who devoted quite a bit of time giving back to the community and leading newbies to sound content.
But as you grow and learn, people tend to move away from the forums as a source of content and gravitate towards blogs and the communities that huddle around them such as SEOMoz, SEO Dojo and others. The content and conversations spawned by the content are much more advanced and sophisticated, which helps advance the quality of content and the knowledge base of the community members.
As others have said, it takes a lot to succeed in this industry. There’s the day job where you are expected to perform with limited resources. You try to carve out some time to catch up on blogs and the buzz in the field during “working hours” but it creeps into your personal time as well.
I think most of us who try to give back are now doing so by posting our own blog posts or commenting on others’ posts to get further clarification or to provide some color commentary.
I don’t think that we’re necessarily ignoring forums as much as we have just moved on to another medium to share expertise.
“Consider what happens when the company you work for has just laid off several people in your department but kept you on board. Suddenly your work load has doubled or tripled. You get no raise of course, despite the added hours and stress.”
It´s incredible how this same mistake happens everywhere! My team was recently reduced by half, and we´re burning in flames in here. How sad!
I entered 2010 totally away from the mail groups I used to read and contribute.
@Kim wrote “You were easy to find…” – is that a nice way of saying I’m a loud and obnoxious attention whore?
And “…These are qualities I and others keep looking for in new people and they are rare. This concerns me.” {blushes and feels woefully undeserving of the compliment} And it concerns me, as well.
But what concerns me more is that those who actually care about a job well done and are committed to sharing accurate, useful & actionable information are being outnumbered by charlatans looking to profit from the ignorance of website owners. They just want to turn a quick buck from all the work people like you have done to create an industry that didn’t exist even 20 years ago. I’d like to kick ‘em in the shins. Uh oh, looks like I just crapped all over that “you were professional…” compliment of yours. My bad.
For them, engagement isn’t important and only gets in the way of chasing bottom line revenues. Even if they wanted to, they couldn’t participate in and contribute to the community…they’d be eaten alive by those like Edward who would out them for douchebaggary faster than the speed of light. As they should be. Just as we all should every time we see some bullshit post full of misinformation submitted to Sphinn.
I think mentors still exist…I just think they tend to engage people who reach out personally with specific questions or in search of specific information on Twitter, LinkedIn, via e-mail, etc. That gives them a chance to offer help to those who genuinely need, want & deserve it without giving charlatans as much opportunity to maliciously use that information for their own gain.
@Aly, you were easy to find because your knowledge was accurate and you communicate that. And, you were in the places where you could be found.
Kim,
I am a member of many forums including yours, but I have been over the years very active at WebProWorld (with over 8500 posts), supporting the members there in the areas of accessibility, usability and SEO.
Though, the last years my business grew dramatically and the same time forum activities became unnecessarily more time consuming. At least one out of three thread updates emails were about posts like: “Thank you for the great information”, and such kind of crap.
And I have no time for replying to those crappy posts: “I am glad that the information was useful for you and you are always welcome.”
I am still willing to help beginners, but I also would appreciate a return, like for example debates, just for a balance, but unfortunately these days are almost impossible.
I hope soon that someone will setup a hidden forum exclusively for advanced professionals, and which membership will be provided via invitation.
Great post by the way!
Kim,
The ecosystem has dramatically changed since the good ol’ community days , especially with the advent of blogging, microblogging, FB, et all..
The conversation today, is simply more fragmented with everyone having multitude of options of expressing themselves. The conversations, debates, mentoring have shifted domain.
10 years ago, there was far less information available for consumption leading to people congregating on forums and debating, but search engines have become much more transparent and open with webmasters than they were, say a decade ago.
People have discovered they monetizing a community is better business decision ( eg: so dojo, seobook ). IMO, you should also explore that option ?
-AD
@cre8pc why the attitude? i do genuinely offer no-strings advice for free. i work in-house so dont have a commercial need to attract business. I use my free advice ‘service’ as a way of stretching the mental muscle and to genuinely give something back and to help people who are being messed around by so called SEO professionals and agencies… and yes my grammer sucks, so does my spelling
@Mark…I was very rude to you yesterday and I’m sorry. I had just read that I had it “backward” and my question was “wrong”. What you describe and how you contribute are perfect and exactly what I was hoping to learn is still happening out there. And some of the folks I’m closest to in the industry can not spell
Wow, the more I read this blog the more I get to see what a real conversation looks and feels like. All of the comments above mine are amazingly interesting, and well thought out.
To the point of the article, I don’t believe that mentors have gone away – just the medium is less personalized. Whereas 10 years ago, I might have been mentored by someone face-to-face, today I’m mentored by a network of blogs just like this one.
In fact, blogs like this are how I learned the trade (in combination with many long nights of studying code, marketing, social media, etc).
I liked @Lisa Barone’s question:
“But is it the Old Gen’s responsibility to seek out and teach or the New Gens responsibility to ask for help and information?”
I don’t think it’s the Old Gen’s job to seek us newcomers to the industry out. I think it should be up to us to seek them out while trying to carve out our little corner, and hone our craft. In the same token, an Old Gen should turn their nose up to a New Gen who is willing to work very hard and asks for help.
Anyhow, that’s my 2 cents. Great stuff Kim!
Correction to my above comment:
“In the same token, an Old Gen *shouldn’t turn their nose up…”
Kim,
I Don´t want to help people that doesn’t want to read or do some (in SEO is a lot) of research.
Sometimes they are just looking for a brochure or a post that “has it all” but you and i know that thing doesn’t exists. SEO is as easy or hard as the real wish of the interested person. They don´t want to spend a penny in receiving that knowledge, but they want to use it to put a lot of money on their pocket, That’s very selfish.
If all the information would be in one place, you’d have posted it here. wouldn’t you?
Yes, i want to help people that wants to work.
Congratulations for the post.
Thanks for the post, this has really got me thinking.
Google have a monster on their hands, does changing the rules do anything to keep the monster controlled, I think not.